艺术上载｜宋冬：艺术如何“活着”

宋冬 SONG Dong

1966年生于北京，1989年毕业于首都师范大学美术系油画专业，现生活、工作于北京。从九十年代初开始从事行为、摄影、录像、装置等多种媒介的艺术创作，同时也参与策划当代艺术的展览和活动。其作品曾在纽约现代艺术博物馆（MoMA）、温哥华美术馆等多家美术馆展出，曾参加威尼斯双年展、光州双年展等众多国际展览。受聘于中央美术学院、北京电影学院、广州美术学院任客座教授。

采访、编辑：徐抒文

全文刊载于《建筑实践》2020年特别增刊《城市制造，艺术上载——中国公共艺术之创举》；

“若冲园”语出《道德经》，意为 “大盈若冲，其用不穷”。艺术家在一处有水塘的庭园中放置三个盆景的基座，用钢框架和收集来的旧门窗构成一组看似盆景的景观系统。这些方体构成山形结构，其中放入并展示附近居民的日常物、工厂原地的旧物、废弃物。

盆景介乎于抽象与具象之间，看上去像是低像素的马赛克构成图，也像是城市建筑的天际线景观，又像是一船运输的货物。艺术品与现有场地的环境融为一体又相互映衬，共同构成一座当代园林，将上海这座国际大都市的历史文脉、当代发展与民众的情感和温度集于一处，使之相遇、对话、思考并面向未来。

AP / 您的作品尚未建成，请问现进行到什么阶段？过程中是否遇到特殊情况？

宋冬（以下简称SD）

现阶段的工作集中在钢架和木构包裹的部分。此次最大的问题就是遇到了疫情，工作起来极不方便。北京这边不能进行大规模的制作，工作人员也分开在多地，不能聚在一起工作。

AP / 您的作品需要搜集很多日用品，在这个过程中应该需要有很多人一起合作吧？

SD.

是的，这部分的工作在疫情期间是不可能去做的。但由于这项计划去年在北京就开始了，所以在疫情前已经收集到了一些东西。我和很多人开玩笑说，我的理念是“无界”，但是现在真正做到无界的是病毒，而人都变成了被隔离的状态。

人是需要交流、接触的，应该崇尚自由、享受自由。我认为艺术的两个关键词是“自由”和“不同”，只有在自由的状态下才能创造那些不同；正是因为不同，才让世界变得丰富多彩。所以在这件作品中，我希望人们共同去形成、营造一个空间，把周边的文化、生活的印记、大家的记忆、整个历史演变和城市发展的过程都或多或少地在这个空间里呈现出来。 

“若冲园”这个名字来源于《道德经》中的“大盈若冲，其用不穷”，作品与园林师、建筑师合作，营造出“互文”的关系，同时利用传统园林里边的“置景”和“借景”产生出来的美学，植入到当代的创造当中。这个园林用“无界”的方式把过去发生点点滴滴在作品中显现出来——首先，它的元素来自于各个地点。

譬如我们收集的几百盏灯都来自于不同的家庭、不同的市场，它们曾经照耀着其他的家庭，而现在被汇于一处，在这里产生一种新的、“无用之用”的功效。虽然落成的是同一地点的三座景观，但它与整个滨江一带，以及旧厂房、栈道、人工湖等等，都形成一种融洽的关系；此外，它的外表是镜面的，反射出周边；同时，人们在休闲的过程中能够去体验文化的创造——它就像一个小型的博物馆，与周边产生相对密切的对话。

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《若冲园》收集的素材及建造过程

此外，我特别希望这件作品能够永久存留。其实这个世界上没有永久的概念，在这个项目里，我们物理性地把它固定在这儿，但里边的物品可以不断地替换，甚至还可以在里头做很多不同的活动，例如戏剧，让作品变成舞台。在这个层面上，其他人的创造性会不断给予它新的生命——我希望是这样的一件作品，而不是一个一成不变的东西。

这个园林并非是个人的工作——不是我一个人的工作，不是一个设计团队的工作，也不是市民的单一性的工作，而是多方的工作。欣稚锋团队介入到整个过程当中是极其有意义的，对我们的帮助特别大，在沟通方面支撑艺术家自由的想象力，帮助艺术家实现想法。因为艺术，尤其是在今天的公共艺术，既然有“公共”二字，它就不只是在公共空间呈现作品那么简单，而是要把很多人、很多团队、很多元素汇集到一起。就像这个项目，它不是简单地强调一个结果，因为这个结果是结果之前的若干个过程的集合，同时也是在这个结果之后若干过程的开始——所以它是一个中间的、衔接性的东西，它一定不是个结果。

AP / 您会认为公众、社会性的介入比物理空间上的介入更深刻、更重要吗？

SD.

我认为这是同等的状况。任何一个文化作品或者说文化产品，它产生的所有作用都是针对于人类社会本身。就像我们现在去看从原始社会就存在的彩陶，它代表的不仅仅单单是当时人的智慧和艺术的结晶，它同时对今天人们对事物的认识和对文化的归根也产生影响，这些影响不是表面上看到形和质体现的那样局限，它更加开阔。艺术、文化影响着人和世界之间的存在状态，影响着人如何相互欣赏、相互帮助，甚至相互质疑的。

这就像艺术提供了一个舞台，而这个舞台到底是为了表演，还是做些其他的什么，我觉得这都是自由的。这件作品就是为了产生一个自由表达的可能性，前提是保证安全就可以。

AP / 您在室外的作品与室内、在美术馆的作品相比，有些什么样的区别呢？

SD.

在实际建造上，最大的区别是防水的问题。

此外，是场地周边的原住民。我了解到之后这些居民将会被迁移，这是我特别不主张的做法。原住民本身的精神、生活印记，包括他们的谈话方式、生活方式，都是一种软文化。即使他们的肉身离开了这里，他们的精神和家园还不能够真正撤离。而一座古代的建筑，虽然建筑一直存在着，但若对它的使用、围绕它的生活全都变了，那么这个集合体就发生了改变。我们怎么才能够用我们微薄力量留住一些原住民的软文化呢？

这一次的点位带有一定的永久性，但我又对永久本身又产生了一些质疑。我更愿意把时间的因素纳入到作品，在相对长的时间里使新的东西不断发生，产生可能性，使作品以一种“活着”的状态存留，并让大家去见证。

AP / 这个作品代表了一部分的“日常”，但设计带有一个白色大理石基座，这反而是有一种脱离日常、在美术馆里被架起来艺术展示的感觉，这个是您特意设置的吗？

SD.

对，因为这些东西其实都是日常当中的废弃物，大家通常认为没有什么价值。我想提出一个“剩余价值”的概念，这和马克思提出的“使用价值”不同。

“使用价值”有关剥削，而我使用废弃物去营造的作品，恰恰是希望人们重新找到本以为已没有价值的物品的价值所在。将其置于一个白色大理石基座上，可以产生一种特别强烈的对比。

但工作涉及到太多因素，比如预算。白色大理石非常昂贵，现有的资金并不够支持。所以现在有两个选择，一是把它换成白色瓷砖，二是换成橘红色的、陶盆一样的贴面。现在我可能更倾向于后一种，因为它带有瓦盆盆景的感觉。盆景是中国文人非常早期就创造出来一个物件，历经上千年的历史和万千赞美之词。它对于我们人来讲，是把自然托付到一个空间，托付到我们可以把玩的一个尺度，但却很少提及盆景中植物的感受、山石的感受。

在营造我们崇尚的“自然”时，按照人类的意识进行把控，却让真正的自然无法正常生长。这个作品相当于一个巨型的盆景，这个盆景当中没有被操控的植物，而是要和周边的植物产生关联。所以这个使用场地很重要的一点就是不能伐树，不能因为这个作品的存在而让树不能存活，不会去支配另一个生命——即使是那些窗户、那些物件，我都认为是带有生命的，它们粘着人的体温，承载着人的情感和记忆。这些时间、情感与记忆就像包浆一样，保护着这些物件，又重新通过人把它们组合，成为视觉上抽象、几何的形体。

AP / 越是和日常相关的概念就越是要基于人们生活经验的同感，您在国外会有很多展览，您会有顾虑观众会因为生活经验的不同，而无法理解到您的作品吗？

SD.

我没有这样的顾虑。我参加了世界各地不同的展览，也跟不同文化背景的人一起交流，我觉得人类还有很多基础共性的。差异性的文化随着交流会不断地产生相互的理解，而同时，我们也可以保持各自的分歧——我觉得这都是对人自由的尊重，这才是有意思的。

在世界各地，我觉得跟大家的交流都是顺畅的，但并非是说对方会完全理解你的心理。其实艺术作品没有一个完全明确的定义，我更愿意的是我的作品可以被多方位、多角度地去理解，做完后它就变成一个开放式的、具有极强的公共性的东西。作品带来的自由表达的可能性，以及在讨论过程当中的质疑与支撑，都是非常可贵的。

AP / 请问您的工作方式是怎样的？是通过自己的工作室或固定的合作团队吗？

SD.

我没有固定的团队。在作品成型之前，基本上是我一个人在工作，当然我会咨询不同人，比如结构工程师，还有我的发小，这都是我非常信任的人。到真正做的时候，需要哪一类的人员我们就会去找这一类的人，很多合作时间较长的人就自然会更了解我们的工作方式和审美取向。由于我的创作五花八门，有时候做录像，有时候做装置，自己还做一些观念性的作品。每一次的工作都有延续性，但也有很多差异性，所以不可能有一个完全稳定的团队。

AP / 相比于您之前做过的公共艺术项目，请问您这次和欣稚锋艺术机构的合作有什么具体感受？

SD.

我觉得他们的团队相当厉害，汇聚了各行各业的专业人员，能提供很多建设性建议，这是非常可贵的。同时，许多工作人员虽不是学艺术出身，但是在和这么多艺术家打交道的过程中，他们会越来越尽力去推进、帮助艺术家们准确地实现其想法。艺术家天马行空，常常会有想法上的变动，做的时候也会不断修改，而这些工作人员特别尊重艺术家和他们的想法，帮助他们解决问题，技术实在解决不了的地方也会进行有效的沟通。我觉得能够尊重艺术家的团队一定是特别棒的团队，这是一个良性循环。

从我的角度来讲，这个项目是在跟政府部门合作，会有各种限制；从政府的角度来讲，他们可能也不太了解艺术。在磨合、沟通、进步的过程当中，除了艺术家本人之外，还有很多机构去支撑了这样的可能性，才使自由的发展才有了可能。今天我们每个人都是有局限性的，但是这个局限性是可以通过不断碰撞、不断交流，从而达到升华的。欣稚锋艺术机构在各方之间起到了桥梁和协调的作用。他们拥有非常强的工作的经验和能力，很多看似无法解决的问题，他们都通过多方面的努力实现了。在不妥协的前提下，既不让艺术受损，又让多方可以接受，使作品得以实现——这种结合各种工作方式、向前推进的能力，是个很重要的力量。只有兼具情怀和能力，才能够合作成功。

而一个原来大家认为不可能的东西最后建成了——虽然可能会与想象中有所差异——但也只有在其落成后，活动的人才能够与它建立起关系，它也才会推进事物向更远的地方发展。

SONG Dong

Born in Beijing in 1966, Song graduated from the Fine Arts Department of Capital Normal University in 1989, majoring in oil painting. He now lives and works in Beijing. Since the early 1990s, he has been engaged in the artistic creation of performance, photography, video, installation and various media, and has also participated in the curation of contemporary art exhibitions and activities. Song’s works have been exhibited at the Museum of Modern Art (MoMA) in New York, the Vancouver Art Museum and many other art museums. He has also participated in the Venice Biennale, Gwangju Biennale and many other international exhibitions. Currently, Song is employed as the visiting professor of the Central Academy of Fine Arts, Beijing, Beijing Film Academy, and Guangzhou Academy of Fine Arts.

Interviewed and edited by Xu Shuwen

The full text was published in Architectural Practice’s special supplementary issue of 2020—City Creation, Art Uploaded: The Pioneering Initiative of Chinese Public Art;

“Ruo Chong Garden” comes from “Tao Te Ching”, which means “What is most full seems empty, yet its use will never fail”. The artist placed three bases of bonsai in a garden with a pond, and used steel frame and old doors and windows to construct a landscape system that looks like a bonsai. These cubes form a mountain-shaped structure in which daily objects of nearby residents, old objects and wastes from the factory are placed and displayed.

The bonsai exists somewhere between the abstract and the concrete. It looks like a low-pixel mosaic composition, a skyline view of a city building, or maybe cargoes transported by a ship. The artwork and the environment of the existing site merge into each other and set each other off, forming a contemporary garden that brings together the historical context, contemporary development, and people’s emotions and warmth of this international metropolis—Shanghai—so that they can meet, talk, think and face the future.

AP / Your work has not been completed yet. May I ask what is the current stage, please? Did you encounter any special circumstances during the process?

Song Dong (referred as SD in this article)

In the current stages, the work focuses on the steel frame and the wrapping wooden structure. The biggest problem is that it is very inconvenient to work due to the pandemic. Large-scale productions cannot be carried out here in Beijing, and the staff members are separated in different places and cannot work together.

AP / You need to collect a lot of daily objects for your work, and there should be many people working together throughout this process, right?

SD.

Yes, but it is impossible to do this part of the work during the pandemic. Since the project has started in Beijing last year, some items have already been collected before the outbreak. I joked with many people that my concept is called "unbounded", but now it is the virus that truly makes it unbounded, and people are in the state of quarantine.

People need to communicate with and contact each other, and should believe in freedom and enjoy it. I think the two keywords of art are "freedom" and “difference", and those differences can only be created in the state of freedom; it is because of those differences that make the world colorful. Therefore, in this work, I hope that people can work together to form and create a space in which the surrounding culture, the imprint of life, people’s memory, the whole process of historical evolution, and urban development are more or less presented.

The name of “Ruo Chong Garden” is derived from “What is most full seems empty, yet its use will never fail” in “Tao Te Ching”. The work cooperates with landscape architects and architects to create an “intertextual” relationship, while the aesthetics produced by the “set decoration” and the “borrowing scenery” in traditional gardens are embedded in contemporary creation. This garden shows everything that happened in the past in an “unbounded” way—first, its elements come from various locations.

For example, the hundreds of lamps that we collected are from different families and markets. They used to light up other families, but now they are gathered into one place, producing an effect of new and “the use of useless”. Although three landscapes were completed at the same location, it forms a harmonious relationship with the entire Binjiang District, as well as old factories, plank roads, artificial lakes, etc.; also, it has a mirrored surface, reflecting the surroundings; at the same time, people can experience the creation of culture at leisure—it is like a small museum that produces a relatively close conversation with the surroundings.

Additionally, I especially hope that this work can be preserved forever. Indeed, the concept of ‘permanent’ does not exist in this world. In this project, we physically fixed the work here, but the items inside can be constantly replaced, and even many different activities, such as drama, can be done inside, to turn the work into a stage. At this level, people’s creativity will continue to give it new life—I hope it is such a work, instead of a fixed thing.

This garden is not a personal job—it is not my job, not a design team’s job, and not the citizens’ singular job, but a multi-party job. The involvement of Art Pioneer Studio (APS) is extremely meaningful and helpful in the whole process. They support the artists’ free imagination and help them realize their ideas. The art, especially in today’s public art that contains the word ‘public’, which not only means to present works in public spaces, but also to bring many people, teams, and elements together. Just like this project, it does not simply emphasize a result, because this result reflects both the collection and the start of several processes before that—so it is an intermediate and cohesive thing that must not be a result.

AP / Do you think that public and social interventions are more profound and important than physical intervention?

SD.

I think they are equal. All the effects produced by any cultural work or cultural product are directed at the human society itself. It is like when we look at the painted pottery that has existed since primitive society. It not only represents the crystallization of people’s wisdom and the art at that time, but also has impacts on people’s understanding of things today and the root of culture. These impacts are not as limited as the form and quality reflected on the surface, instead, it is more open. Art and culture affect the state of existence between people and the world, how people appreciate each other, help each other, and even question each other.

It is like a stage provided by the art, but I think it is all free whether the stage is for performance or something else. The purpose of this work is to create a possibility of free expression on the premise of safety.

Usefulness of Uselessness - Varied Window No.10

© Pace Gallery

AP / What are the differences among your outdoor, indoor, and museum works?

SD.

For the actual construction work, the main difference is the concern about waterproofing.

Another is the local residents around these spaces. I got to know that these residents would be moved to other places. I do not support this treatment. The residents’ spirits and lives, including the ways they talk and live, are all a type of soft culture. Even when their physical bodies leave the place, their spirits and senses of belonging cannot be removed from the place. Despite the long existence of an ancient building, if its function and surrounding lives change, the aggregation at the place will change. How can we use our limited power and resources to sustain such soft cultures of the original residents?

The location of this time carries permanency to some extent, but I have some concerns about this permanency. I am more willing to incorporate the element of time into my works and let new things continuously develop for a relatively long time, creating new possibilities. In this sense, the works can “live”, and have people witness their living. 

AP / This work represents a part of the “daily life”, but the design contains a white marble base. This creates a sense of being separated from daily life and being put up for an artistic display in a gallery. Is this something you set up specifically?

SD.

Yes. Because these things are actually daily wastes, and people usually think that they have no value. I want to put forward a concept of “surplus value”, which is different from the “value in use” proposed by Marx.

“Value in use” is about exploitation, and the works that I created with waste are precisely in the hope that people can rediscover the value of objects that they thought were no longer valuable. By placing it on a white marble base, it can create a strong contrast.

East part plan and material diagram

The work involves too many factors, such as the budget. White marble is very expensive, and the available funds are not enough to support it. Therefore, there are two options—one is to replace it with the white tile, and the other is to replace it with an orange-red and pottery-like veneer. Now I may lean towards the latter because it creates the feeling of a pottery bonsai. A bonsai is an object created by Chinese literati in very early years, and it has gone through thousands of years of history and thousands of praises. For human beings, it entrusts nature to space and a scale that we can play with, but it rarely mentions the feelings of plants and rocks in bonsai.

When creating the “nature” we admire, we control it according to human consciousness, but prevents the real nature from growing normally. This work corresponds to a giant bonsai, in which there are no plants to be manipulated, but to be associated with the surrounding plants. Thus, the most important thing about using this site is that trees cannot be cut down, and people cannot make trees incapable of survival because of the existence of this work. We are not going to dominate another life—I think even those windows and objects have life. They stick to human’s body temperature and carry people’s emotions and memories. These times, emotions, and memories are like patinas, protecting these objects, and then forming visually abstract and geometric shapes through people’s reconstruction.

Song Dong, “The Borderless Wall”© Fei Art Museum

AP / The more everyday-life-related the concept is, the more it should be based on the empathy of people’s life experiences. While you have many overseas exhibitions, are you concerned about foreign viewers’ barriers to understanding your work due to their different life experiences?

SD.

I do not have such a concern. I have participated in different exhibitions around the world, and have communicated with people from different cultural backgrounds. I feel that humans have many fundamental similarities. Different cultures can be mutually understood through communication, but meanwhile, we can still maintain the differences—I think this represents the human’s respect toward freedom, which is more interesting [than worrying about not having a “correct” understanding].

I feel my conversations with people around the world were all smooth around the world, but it was not that the other side could fully understand you. Indeed, works of art do not have a clear definition. I am more willing to see my works be understood through multiple positions and perspectives. In this way, the work(s) will become open and strongly public. Brought by the works, the possibilities of free expression, and the supports and doubts incurred through discussions, are all very valuable.

Avenue Square © Wuzhen Contemporary Art Exhibition 2016

AP / How do you work? Do you work through your own studio or a long-term collaboration?

SD.

I do not have a settled team. Before a work comes into shape, I usually work alone. Of course, I sometimes consult with different people, such as the structural engineer and my close friend--those I trust a lot. When I am actually implementing the project, we find people of different specializations based on our needs, and many people, with whom I work for a longer time, have a better understanding of our work mode and preferences. My work varies a lot. I sometimes make videos, sometimes installations, and sometimes some conceptual works. Each project has its continuity, but also many differences, so it is impossible to have a completely fixed team.

 Installation view of Song Dong's Mandala City for Eating

© Kathmandu Triennale

AP / Compared to the public art projects you have done before, what are some specific feelings about this collaboration with APS?

SD.

I think their team is super great. They draw together professionals from all walks of life, and can provide a lot of constructive suggestions, which is very valuable. Though many staff members do not have art backgrounds, they still try their best to advance and help the artists realize their ideas accurately. Artists are wild and unconstrained, and they often change their ideas and constantly revise them. The staff especially respect the artists and their ideas, help them solve problems, and have effective communications when technologies don’t work. I think the team that knows to respect the artists must be a great team, and thus forms a beneficial cycle.

From my perspective, this project is a collaboration with the government, which carries certain limitations; from the government’s view, they probably do not know much about art. It is through the process of agreement, communication, and improvement, and support from many forces and organizations other than the artist that makes free development possible. Everyone has limitations, but they can be transformed through continuous confrontations and communications. Art Pioneer Studio functions as a bridge and a facilitator among different parties. Its members have strong work experiences and skills. They solved many problems that seemed unsolvable through their efforts. They realized the work in a way that did not compromise our interest or damage the art, and in a way accepted by different stakeholders--this ability to integrate diverse work modes and push the work is a very important power. Only the compatibility of both care and skills can form successful collaborations. 

As what was considered impossible was eventually achieved—though it might be somewhat different from the original conception--only after its completion people could build relationships with it, and therefore, it could push developments of different things further. 

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新媒体编辑 / 田力静，徐抒文

视觉 / Sai

英文翻译由欣稚锋艺术机构提供

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2020上海杨浦滨江的世界级公共艺术作品

这个艺术小组，创作了第一个上海“地下美术馆”？

关于欣稚锋艺术机构

欣稚锋艺术机构（Art Pioneer Studio）与国内外优秀艺术家、设计师和建筑师合作，致力于为城市与乡村室内外空间策划、设计并制作独一无二的定制艺术品，将触动人心的艺术力量赋予建筑空间和城市环境，以卓越的创造力打造非同凡响的公共艺术空间。

APS时刻都在探索城市与乡村公共空间的艺术可能性，在艺术项目与环境之间建立连接是APS的重要课题。我们根据项目的不同性质和特点进行整体艺术方案策划，为艺术家提供充分的创作和探索空间，为城市豪华酒店、高端写字楼、商场与住宅的室内外空间、以及艺术节项目等提供全程策展及监制服务。我们寻求艺术与不同领域之间的对话，组织并促进国际性跨学科的合作，尤其在建筑及艺术领域之间组织跨界合作，让建筑师与艺术家共同创造独一无二、量身定做的优秀公共艺术作品。

APS已与来自全球十余个国家和地区的40余位艺术家开展合作关系，并受政府委托策划执行2019上海城市空间艺术季（SUSAS 2019），同时在文华东方酒店集团、光明集团、陆家嘴集团及政府的多个境内外地产项目中担任全程艺术策划及监制顾问。

The Art to be continued…

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